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Emmanuel Oga 2020-12-07 03:23:36

has anybody seen https://www.mm-adt.org/ and https://www.mm-adt.org/vm/ ? (by one of the creators of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gremlin_(query_language)). I don't fully understand the concept but maybe someone here does?

🔗 mm-ADT

Emmanuel Oga 2020-12-07 03:27:52

query language developers can create languages irrespective of the underlying storage system that will ultimately be manipulated by the language.

processing engine developers can have their processors programmed by any query language for data stored in any storage system.

storage systems (such as databases) immediately support any all mm-ADT compliant query languages and processors in support of the multifarious requirements of their end users' data processing requirements.

Emmanuel Oga 2020-12-07 03:29:14

sounds like some sort of universal runtime (something like wasm?) but also including a specification for data storage and querying

Andrew F 2020-12-07 05:47:28

I'll have to spend more time looking at this. Thanks!

Prathyush 2020-12-09 11:42:35

Yeah, he is crazy. I don’t understand what he has done either. Waiting to finish a course of abstract algebra before trying to understand the trade offs done in his stream ring theory.

Andrew F 2020-12-09 21:00:23

The project looks like an attempt to create the encoding-independent layer Shalabh Chaturvedi and I were talking about in this thread: https://futureofcoding.slack.com/archives/C5T9GPWFL/p1606359276136400?thread_ts=1606359276.136400&cid=C5T9GPWFL

[November 25th, 2020 6:54 PM] ak: An old thread I wish I could link to:

&gt; Consider the powerful, time-honored environment that gives us many “small programs, each doing one thing well”, the Unix shell. There is a cut command, a sort command, and many more. A versatile collection of blocks that I can snap together in different ways (yay pipes!). There isn’t much duplication of commands and the environment seems to have nice composition properties. &gt; &gt; But it only goes so far. &gt; &gt; If I write a program in Unix using Java or Python, can I reuse the Unix sort to sort an array of items inside my program? Of course not, what an improper question! The decent choice is to reimplement sorting in my program (or use the standard library where someone else has already re-implemented it). &gt; &gt; The computer already knows how to sort things, why do I need to tell it again? -- <@U8A5MS6R1> (https://shalabh.com/programmable-systems/on-composition.html)

From the inventor of shells:

&gt; I felt that commands should be usable as library subroutines, or vice versa. This stemmed from my practice of writing CTSS [OS] commands in MAD, a simplified Algol-like language. It was much faster and the code was more maintainable than IBM 7094 assembly code. Since I needed MAD-friendly subroutine calls to access CTSS primitives, I wrote in assembly code a battery of interface subroutines, which very often mimicked CTSS basic command functions. I felt it was an awkward duplication of effort. However, I did not go further in the context of CTSS. -- Louis Pouzin (https://multicians.org/shell.html)

Shalabh Chaturvedi 2020-12-10 16:33:08

Interesting - thanks @Andrew F this looks interesting. Will be looking deeper into this later.

Prathyush 2020-12-10 22:50:28

Andrew F Pretty much. I would love to know if you guys can make an assessment to what degree this project has succeeded. Its a darn interesting take on databases, especially given his background and the math heavy lifting he has done.

Christopher Galtenberg 2020-12-07 03:30:40

https://techcommunity.microsoft.com/t5/excel-blog/announcing-lambda-turn-excel-formulas-into-custom-functions/ba-p/1925546

(As a non-Excel side note: always wondered why node-based took off rather than trying to lay out a program on a sheet)

🔗 Announcing LAMBDA: Turn Excel formulas into custom functions

Ivan Reese 2020-12-07 16:49:53

To the best of my knowledge, node-based took off because it replicated the experience of using patch cords with physical equipment (like analog synthesizers, likely many other early analog hand-reprogrammable systems). As those analog systems were rebuilt in the computer, it was somewhat natural to replicate the interface.

Don't know why sheet-based programming didn't similarly take off, but perhaps because there wasn't as much usage of sheet-based physical interfaces for electric systems in industry.

Christopher Galtenberg 2020-12-07 19:09:35

Sounds like Onex is on this path http://object.network/onex-app.html Duncan Cragg

Duncan Cragg 2020-12-07 19:22:13

Hi, thanks Christopher! In that doc, I'm trying to guide normies, who probably have come across spreadsheets, towards what I'm doing, which has enough similarities to them to make this a reasonably short journey, I hope!

There is thus a commonality between the Excel Lambda stuff and my own shared rule objects, but it gets a bit thin at that point!

Christopher Galtenberg 2020-12-07 20:08:33

Yeah, Excel Lambda is barely a step - there's clearly a much bolder vision available, using an entire thinking space that's programmable, that also has all the natural ease and traction of a sheet

Duncan Cragg 2020-12-07 21:18:55

That sounds like my vision .. yet to be achieved, but I'm working on it.. 😄

Christopher Galtenberg 🕰️ 2020-12-05 06:00:52

https://johncarlosbaez.wordpress.com/2020/12/04/graph-transformation-theory-and-applications/

🔗 Graph Transformation Theory and Applications

Christopher Galtenberg 2020-12-07 04:02:49

A bit, in managing the graph representation of the IaaS where I work - trying to discover morphs that leave assets stranded

Emmanuel Oga 2020-12-07 04:44:57

what sort of graph representation do you use? Do you work off of a graph database?

Jimmy Miller 2020-12-07 15:24:22

The language I am (sporadically) working on is term rewriting based. But I have considered trying to do jungle evaluation as a performance optimization. Not quite to the point where that matters yet though.

https://www.cs.york.ac.uk/plasma/publications/pdf/HabelKreowskiPlump.88.pdf

Duncan Cragg 2020-12-07 15:44:23

Onex is definitely based on tree rewriting, but could be graph rewriting depending on what is the formal difference between the two! Ask me a tree or graph rewriting discrimination question 😊

Emmanuel Oga 2020-12-07 17:58:43

guys feel free to add copious links in this chats. I had no idea what onex was, luckily it was google-able http://object.network/index-non-tech.html 🙂

🔗 Overviews and aspects | The Object Network

Emmanuel Oga 2020-12-07 17:59:41

also I'm not sure what's the language you are sporadically working on Jimmy Miller but I recognize you as "that guy from the meander talk" 😛

Jimmy Miller 2020-12-07 20:15:56

Glad to be recognized 🙂 Yeah, I’ve been working on a language that does the think I sketched at the end of that talk. If I ever get back to working on it, I should have some nice things there. Very close to having a time-traveling debugger in like 5-7 lines of userland code.

Prathyush 🕰️ 2020-12-06 07:34:43

Mad energy here: http://xzzulz.github.io/xoL/

Getting Ivan Reese vibes from this one.

📷 image.png

Ivan Reese 2020-12-07 17:26:42

I would love to see a video of the author demoing this system. I love the visual presentation, but am a bit mystified about some of the whys.

Ivan Reese 2020-12-07 17:31:14

Just discovered that if you click on something and hit the return key, it toggles an editor panel. Still can't figure out how to execute anything.

Ivan Reese 2020-12-07 17:34:48

Here's their blog: https://xzzul.co.uk/blog/

Ivan Reese 2020-12-07 17:38:26

Doing some mad Googling... it looks like Robbie Gleichman (Glance) and this person have even had some https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14483634 on HN. Small world.

Ivan Reese 2020-12-07 17:48:41

Welp, sent them an email. Let's see if they're still existing on this shard of reality.

Shalabh Chaturvedi 2020-12-09 17:20:15

Today is the 52nd anniversary of "The Mother of All Demos" by Doug Englebart. Here it is nicely organized by chapter and section: https://www.dougengelbart.org/content/view/374/464/

🔗 1968 Demo Interactive - Doug Engelbart Institute

Shalabh Chaturvedi 2020-12-09 17:22:34

There are also other version, e.g. 24 min highlights, linked from here: https://www.dougengelbart.org/content/view/209/448/

🔗 Firsts: The Demo - Doug Engelbart Institute

Srini Kadamati 2020-12-09 22:00:07

dang, an entire conference on diagrams o_0

https://twitter.com/shannonmattern/status/1336791221570826240

🐦 Shannon Mattern: Holy hell - a whole conference on diagrams! http://www.diagrams-conference.org/2021/

Andrew F 2020-12-09 22:27:16

This is dangerous, for someone like me anyway, and in this crowd I don't think I'm the only one. :D

Kartik Agaram 2020-12-10 14:18:17

http://yosefk.com/blog/the-nomadic-programmer.html

Scott Anderson 2020-12-10 23:30:11

Damn, at my last job I actually started making a lisp

Scott Anderson 2020-12-10 23:30:25

need to check that urge next time it happens

William Taysom 2020-12-11 02:21:32

Good to have a mix. Here's an example. Lua is managed by three men of very different programmer types: an academic, an industry person, perhaps the third is more artistic. With the goal of having a little language, nothing makes it in unless the three can agree. Makes for some clever, clever compromises. At the superficial level, can't decide howToCase multiple_word functions, so core functions are one word. Another. Whitespace sensitivity or semicolons separators? Neither. Have a grammar that ignores whitespace and doesn't require semicolons.

Kartik Agaram 2020-12-10 19:59:55

Small is Beautiful

https://small-tech.org/videos/small-is-beautiful-1-its-elementary-dear-watson

Inaugural episode of a new live video series.

🔗 Small is Beautiful – “It’s elementary, dear Watson!”

Kartik Agaram 2020-12-11 16:16:45

Stefan Lesser I just remembered that you asked about Elementary OS at https://futureofcoding.slack.com/archives/C5U3SEW6A/p1606582829298300?thread_ts=1606580387.297600&cid=C5U3SEW6A

[November 28th, 2020 9:00 AM] stefanlesser: On that note, does anyone have experience with and an opinion on https://elementary.io ?

Stefan Lesser 2020-12-11 16:18:25

Kartik Agaram Oh, thanks for pointing out the connection — I saw your post, but totally overlooked that detail.

Kartik Agaram 2020-12-11 16:19:51

Probably nothing new for anyone clued in. But I'm on the lookout for a new machine, and I'm now likely to run Elementary on it.

Stefan Lesser 2020-12-11 16:32:18

So far I heard two kinds of feedback: 1. It's a-ma-zing! And then it turns out they haven't really used it (much). 2. They were excited and tried it, but then disappointed (all macOS users; I guess expectations are too high). For me it's unlikely that it's going to replace macOS anytime soon, but I'd be totally interested in running it on a Raspberry Pi (which still isn't officially supported, I believe).

Christopher Galtenberg 🕰️ 2020-11-28 16:19:47

https://medium.com/@probonopd/bring-back-the-ease-of-80s-and-90s-personal-computing-393738c5e2a1

🔗 Bring back the ease of 80s and 90s personal computing

S.M Mukarram Nainar 2020-12-11 03:55:33

Jack Rusher Have you seen https://arcan-fe.com/ ?

🔗 Arcan

Jack Rusher 2020-12-12 13:38:38

S.M Mukarram Nainar Arcan as a whole is at the level below the one where I think most of the action should start, but they have an interesting subproject called http://durden.arcan-fe.com/menu that's looking into some of the things I hope to see explored. :)

🔗 Durden

Stathis Sideris 2020-12-11 22:21:25

Just found this, seems to be node programming for games. I’ve never seen such dense nodes, and I like the interaction where you “collect” your nodes in a temporary areas before connecting them in the main flow. This was possibly necessary because it’s on mobile platforms: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v0Y0VPiqe8w&feature=youtu.be

🎥 How to make Concentration in Fancade

William Taysom 2020-12-12 07:14:21

So cute and clicky. Fancade is yet another thing I would love to try out.

NTAuthority 2020-12-12 07:30:11

I found it hard to follow, is it because I am new to it or the way one does it or it is hard?

William Taysom 2020-12-12 13:32:45

To me it looks like regular programming, but with nodes and wires. From watching about half the video, I had very little sense of the runtime behavior, and I didn't get a sense that the Fancade provides much introspection. But I also haven't looked very much into Fancade either.

Chris Knott 2020-12-12 12:20:39

Saw this on HN https://www.nngroup.com/articles/anti-mac-interface/ - seems to be originally from 1996 but updated in at least 2009. It makes a number of really good observations as well as some I disagree with.

The designers of the Phelps farm tractor in 1901 based their interface on a metaphor with the interface for the familiar horse: farmers used reins to control the tractor. The tractor was steered by pulling on the appropriate rein, both reins were loosened to go forward and pulled back to stop, and pulling back harder on the reins caused the tractor to back up [5]. It's clear in hindsight that this was a dead end, and automobiles have developed their own user interfaces without metaphors based on earlier technologies. > Nonetheless, people today are designing information-retrieval interfaces based on metaphors with books, even though young folks spend more time flipping television channels and playing video games than they do turning the pages of books.

I think one of the genuine schisms in FoC work at the moment is whether you lean in to physicality of interactions or not. Bret Victor clearly believes that is the right direction (he's gone off the deep end a bit IMO with Dynamicland). Other people (like this article) point out the limitations of this approach. The General Magic UI with the virtual corridor is clearly nonsense, whereas Victor advocates very convincingly for physical corridors (workshops) you should move through. How come those aren't even more ridiculous?

My initial thoughts are that Victor is right in that there is enormous value in anchoring HCI into the full facets of being human, and the more these align with our deep, long-evolved, senses, the more effective they will be. However, I also believe that human have the ability to fully and completely conceive of some "superpowers" that violate the laws of physics but still obey internal human brain logic. Things like teleportation, x-ray/omniscience, single-timeline time travel. A fully physical system like Dynamicland will struggle to implement things like sorting of files, even though this process introduces no conceptual difficulties.

This quote from the article;

Metaphors not only constrain and mislead users, they can also limit designers' ability to invent more powerful interface mechanisms

I disagree with. For example, the file/folder metaphor does not constrain and mislead users, I think it empowers users because it allows them to make use of their intuitions. When you introduce "more powerful interface mechanism" such as symlinks/junction points, at that point you are actually constraining and misleading users, because you are removing the structural support of their intuitions, which ends up with users deleting files in one "place" and them disappearing from another "place" - a clear violation of natural laws.

I think the crux of the disagreement is highlighted by this point;

The desktop metaphor assumes we save training time by taking advantage of the time that users have already invested in learning to operate the traditional office with its paper documents and filing cabinets. But the next generation of users will make their learning investments with computers, and it is counterproductive to give them interfaces based on awkward imitations of obsolete technologies

To what extent are these capabilities arbitrary familiarity with now-defunct technology, and to what extent are they absolutely intrinsic and unavoidable aspects of being human?

William Taysom 2020-12-12 13:39:49

Two thoughts.

(1) Dynamicland's deep end makes sense if you think of it as an attempt to escape the gravitational pull of our entrenched computing paradigms

(2) Metaphors are meant to be broken. "It's like a flub except you dub instead gub."

U01HBLMJ3C0 2020-12-12 19:58:47

I find screens vs not screens to be a useful distinction here. I think Dynamicland is trying to show us the way away from screens. Meanwhile for the large amount of work that will continue to be done on screens, things could be a lot better (and a lot of the work itself could probably be eliminated — bullshit jobs).

As far as screens go I think Bret Victor’s arguments in Magic Ink are still very strong and not being taken seriously be UI designers. (In short that interaction is to be avoided because it’s faster to “navigate” with the eye)

Emmanuel Oga 2020-12-12 22:28:39

There's [...] a bidirectional mapping between the textual representation of a function in Ballerina syntax and the visual representation of the function as a sequence diagram. The sequence diagram representation fully shows the behavior of the function as it relates to concurrency and network interaction.

The closest analogy I can think of is Visual Basic. The visual model of a UI as a form is integrated with the language semantic to make writing a Windows GUI application much easier than before. Ballerina is trying to do something similar but for a different domain. You could think of it as Visual Basic for the Cloud.

From https://blog.jclark.com/2019/09/ballerina-programming-language-part-1.html.

Emmanuel Oga 2020-12-12 22:30:16

They designed the language such that the diagrams they used to draw on whiteboards could be automatically generated from the source code. See: https://ballerina.io/why-ballerina/sequence-diagrams-for-programming/.

📷 image.png

Shubhadeep Roychowdhury 2020-12-13 12:51:37

https://arstechnica.com/features/2020/12/a-damn-stupid-thing-to-do-the-origins-of-c/

Really enjoyed reading this

🔗 “A damn stupid thing to do”—the origins of C